Locusts and Wild Honey

“Skyscraper sermon”–love it! I must admit, I’ve heard my share of those.

Great job on this one, Don.

Coincidentally, Osteen will be providing fodder for my post today as well.

Excellent work, sir. Much approval.

Wow Don, that was a great job, insightfully and accurately written. Thank God for your clarity and wisdom. What a great assessment.

I have no affiliation or association with Joel Osteen of any kind. I’m neither endorsing nor condemning his message or ministry.

As an observation (having watched his program 2 or 3 times and reading in a periodical about his church outreach in the Houston area) his TV presentation is what we would all call Theology-Lite. In other words, it’s the McDonald’s fast food version of church.

Before his ministry is outright condemned do we know that there are no other Bible studies, cell groups, Basics for Believers classes, and etc.. that meet at other times for the further training of his congregation?

I guess my point is simply this. In a fast paced - media driven society he seems to provide a fast pace - media friendly message. Perhaps, I have no first hand knowledge of this, members of Lakewood Church get the deeper, slow paced, full course meal at other times.

I think his public persona is one of non confrontational and non offensive. I’m sure his services are full blown Charismatic but one would never realize that watching his telecast. He doesn’t seem to make tongues nor manifestations his focus.
Thus, attracting a larger audience.

But if one attends church I’m sure the typical Charismatic elements are present as well as other times where the Bible is taught more in depth then just a 20 minute TV format.

Whether we would agree with their “expanded” Bible teaching or not is another topic but I am sure there is more. His ministry has attracted more then just blue collar wanna-be’s.

Pastor Marty, What theology? Good grief, if he can’t get around to Christ and His works in twenty minutes worth of time when does he ever! If the gospel was the goal and drive of his ministry then it wouldn’t be to hard to hear some good news. A minister of the Gospel doesn’t not tell his people about Christ and leave it up to small group leaders. The gospel clearly doesn’t burn in this guy’s bones. He would rather give them a “comfortable life” here than tell them the truth about their sinful condition and the wrath that awaits them. You can’t have good news unless you tell about the bad first. I say Ichabod on his so called ministry and call for him to repent and submit to the Whole counsel of God’s word!

Pastor marty Braemer misses the crucial point that the preaching of the Word is God’s ordained means of proclaiming salvation in Christ. The pulpit is not to be used as a cheerful “front” to entice people by appealing to theior vanity and comfort zone so that unseen Bible studies can then move forward and teach the truth. A man’s ministry is, indeed, evaluated by what he teaches from a position of authority, and the way he lives after the model of Christ.

If Osteen claims to be called to preach the Bible, then he is not excused from failing to preach the whole counsel of God. Glibness and superficiality are, indeed, sins when they are passed off as the doctrines of Christianity.

This isn’t really preaching is it? It seems like there needs to be that comes from the Bible.

BLOGGER:

I commend Osteen for calling his parishioners to a life void of dirty jokes, lying, cheating, premarital cohabitation, and foul language,…”

STEPHEN:

Mormons and JW’s could do this much.

You’re right on in your analysis of this matter. Thanks for taking a stand.

Should we be shocked by Osteen? Is not his ministry simply a further progression (or degression) of the media style of ministry that began in the late 70’s?

Billy Graham stopped preaching repentance and urged men to “make a decision.” Billy Hybels introduced the concept of seeker sensitive services where people could explore God at their own pace. Songs about the cross and the blood were omitted as being offensive. Rick Warren took Hybelism to a new level of checking demographics and marketing techniques for each local area.

Isn’t Osteen’s style simply the next logical step in the watering down process?

I understand your position and I’m not in disagreement but I am amazed that you are disappointed with those who endorse and condone this. Why? They are all part of the same process.

People are shocked and disappointed in Osteen because they love God’s Word and see that he is—however subtly and adroitly—perverting its message. You may as well wonder why real Christians are shocked and saddened by adulterous and child-molesting preachers who use the pulpit to gain their prey. Such perversions have gone on since the Church began, but each tragedy is still tragic, nonetheless. And people sensitive to the value that God has placed on that which bears His Image or proclaims His name in will always feel shocked and saddened.

aha, the FFF South. Stumbled on here today. As to Osteen, you’ll never hear him plunge the depths. He’s not a trained theologian. But Pastor Marty Braemer is right. None of you have a clue as to what *really* goes on at Lakewood Church until you go there and visit. I am told first-hand by people who have been there that what the camera doesn’t show-is a strong explanation and call for salvation each week, which ends up typically with dozens of people weeping in the altars receiving Christ as Savior. But wait, you guys don’t like altars either do you? Never mind. You won’t find much Calvinist Zap going on at Lakewood, no you wont.

It’s true that Joel shoots with a wide pattern scattergun, but did you ever consider that could be his calling?

I notice Don that you link to the Forum Darling Ronson’s assessment of Joel. I find it interesting that Ronson chides Osteen for “no repentance” when his own testimony does not include same. Lot of words, it is. Kind of like “this is my Bible.”

Osteen may not be your cup of tea, but you grandstanders who want to deride his ministry-let’s take a look at your fruit.

I am lovingly and forever, your G Man-Let me know if I can help.

G-Man,

I think you meant “plumb the depths”.

And if you lift that first paragraph of yours and take it back through time about 30 years, you’d find it identical to what people were saying about Jack Hyles, especially the weeping at the altar part. The strong fundamentalist identification of tears with conversion still holds true, and it is still an extremely unreliable test of faith (but a great test for emotional ferver). To preach Christ, a man must, quite simply, preach Christ, and carry on his shoulders the reproach of Christ. Whoever tries to dodge that reproach is actually dodging the whole counsel of God. All of the guarantees in the world cannot undo error in preaching or the ommission of Scriptural truth from the proclamation of the Good News.

Jeri

I’ve read a couple of negative reports of Joel Osteen. I keep hearing the complaint that he doesn’t deliver Jesus. He avoids the gospel. He isn’t real.

Read his first sermon on the Lakewood site. It’s the Easter Sermon. If you can read this sermon and show me where he leaves Jesus out or fails to acknowledge the gospel, I will bow to your opinion of this man.

This thought keeps coming through my mind. Who are we to judge this man? Isn’t it God’s place to do this?

Jesus is salvation, Jesus is our gate into heaven, to reside in the presence of God. Joel Osteen doesn’t leave this out. It truely bothers me when some poor, insecure people have to condemn a fellow man just because he doesn’t fit their mold. I do not see Joel preaching anything that would lead people away from Christ, so admit that you don’t know it all.

God loves all of us. Didn’t Jesus say to love one another as I have loved you?

By the way, I’m not affiliated with Lakewoor or Joel Osteen. I’m just one of your Christian brothers living in North Dakota. Please stop the hate.

Jason,

Hate? I never expressed any hate toward Osteen. I do not hate him. I do not even know him other than the few reviews I’ve read, an interview, and the sermon I watched. He seems like a very likable person. I only provided a critique of his one sermon. I did not say he wasn’t real. I did not accuse him of never mentioning Jesus ever in his life. I only pointed out his faulty exegesis of Romans 12:2, the passage on which he reportedly based his sermon. I even commended him for getting it half right. I think Christians ought to have “the courage to be different,” as he called his hearers to do, but when Osteen preaches self-effort as meritorious work that garners God’s favor he turns the gospel of grace on its head. Paul taught that God is merciful toward us, then He works through us to accomplish His will. Paul did not say that we clean ourselves up so that God can then come in and bless us for our good lives. Osteens message leaves us winning our own approval with God with no need of Christ.

His message completely contradicted the gospel. He preached that if you simply “dare to be different, God will richly bless you. The Bible teaches that even with all our self effort and daring, we are hopelessly lost apart from Christ.

Many have criticized him for being shallow and simple. I do not fault him for that. I think there is a place for being very elementary, straightforward and simple. That’s good. But if you have the message wrong simplicity doesn’t correct that. For example I could go into a first grade math class and in very simple terms teach them math. If I said, “OK boys and girls, if I had seven apples and I give you four apples, then I now would have five apples.” My message would be simple, but the simplicity of the explanation wouldn’t be the problem. Seven minus four equals three, not five.

God’s blessings are not dependent on our human effort or our ability to stand out in the crowd. God’s blessings flow from his mercy and grace. Our standing before God does not depend on what we can do, but on what Christ has done. I do not think I am being nit picky. This is the fundamental core of Christianity and Osteen teaches contrary to it.

I will be glad to read his Easter sermon, as you suggested. Look for my review some time in the future.

Jason,

I am one who has been contributing to the Internet Monk site about Joel Osteen and I also came across the sermon you mention.

There is no doubt in my mind that in that particular sermon, Joel did his best to keep everything right. But it was his first sermon there, and that was in 1999 I think.

The point is that since then the Lakewood church has exploded in growth, and this has happened at the same time as his Gospel preaching has diminished.

My take on the situation is that he has decided to go with what works and what gives him the most popularity - which is to preach works on not Grace; to preach acceptance rather than repentance; to preach to serve men rather than to preach to serve God.

thank you for the correction Jeri I’m *sure* it was well intentioned and coming from a professional writer such as yourself well-received. But no, I meant “plunge” the depths. It’s possibly colloquialistic, and just because you’ve never heard of it doesn’t negate it. If you want to play usage police, I’ll be happy to take a crack at your blog which at times speaks ill of your skills.

But no, I suspect that your input here is simply because a point may have stung. Does *everything* have to get back to Hyles with you Jeri? Hyles was bad, ok…his people were bad. He was the pits. But when will you stop seeing the world in terms of it’s relationship to Hammond? It’s a pretty sad existence Jerri.

You usually employ fairly sound reasoning skills, yet when your JACKO light goes off, you lose all context and along with your composure. I’m not sure you were interested in hearing what I said, but the thrust of what I said is that the sum total of what goes on at Lakewood , as Pastor Marty pointed out-is not scene with the camera’s eye.

There’s some mighty good things happening there. But there again, a PCA Calvinist wouldn’t call sinners repenting in the altar good. Last I heard, they wouldn’t recognize the altar at all, and any sort of call there would be Arminian and Semi-Pelagian. So once again, if we are on the same planet- we are poles apart.

G

I love it when people play the “don’t judge” card as if Christians are just supposed to tolerate twisted theology. Sometimes the most loving thing we can do for our brother is to condemn error. Christ’s work should NEVER be clouded because of our focus on our own deeds.
Thanks for the post, I appreciate the wake up call to this man’s teaching.

I’ve written on Osteen as well. Here.

Don, I’m not a *huge* Osteen fan, but I really believe that you completely mischaracterize him based on a limited review. Yes, it is “theology lite” and Joel will never impress a Calvinist. Joel probably would have a great big question mark in the middle of his face if you asked him about Five Points. But I’ve watched him for awhile, and I never have seen him as you say

” This is the fundamental core of Christianity and Osteen teaches contrary to it.”

“No Christ, no cross, no mention of man’s moral bankruptcy, just the feel-good positive message of assurance that God always rewards human effort and virtue.”

Some very serious charges based on a couple of sermons listened to over the internet Don. I really think you’re much fairer than that. Osteen isn’t my cup of tea, though I do enjoy him. I couldn’t go to his church because I’m not into the mega church. But I honestly think if you looked into Joel and the overall thrust of Lakewood, you’d see a very different brother in the Vineyard doing the work, not the “dangerous heretic” that you and the FFF Calvinists are painting.

Of course I also understand the “Blog” thing and it’s fun to pontifficate and have a few people read you. I guess I’m just surprised because it doesn’t sound like you…or does it? Maybe I’m wrong.

G

G-man,

I thought I offered a balance review. I readily admitted that I did not know Joel Osteen other than a couple of blog entries I read. Instead of taking someone else’s word on him, I decided to check him out for myself. I only watched to one sermon and critiqued the content of that one sermon. I noted the points I agreed with him and commended him for calling folks to a life void of dirty jokes, lying, cheating, premarital cohabitation, and foul language.” Christians ought to be different from the world. I have no problem with him saying that and in fact agree with him. He missed it, however, when he presented this clean living as a means to gain God’s approval. Sinn tainted human beings can not achieve merit in the eyes of God through their own self effort. We must totally rely on the work of Christ, not our own work, if we expect to be a sweet smelling sacrifice to God. Our righteousness wreaks as filthy rags. Osteen said, “Cream rises to the top.” So does dross. Without the imputed righteousness of Christ our lives carry nothing but the stench of sour milk.

My words may sound like “very serious charges,” as you say, but they only carry the weight of seriousness because of the subject matter itself. How does a man find favor with God? Osteen says, “swim upstream and God will bless you.” I believe that stream leads to everlasting death. As I said, I do not fault Osteen for being simple. I have a simple message too. Our only hope rests in Christ. When someone preaches that a man finds favor in the sight of God apart from Christ, he preaches a false gospel. I am not mad at Osteen. I do not hate Osteen. I harbor no animosity toward Osteen. I am simply pointing out the dead serious error in this one sermon I heard him preach. If it will make you feel better, I’ll listen to another and offer a review of that one as well. I do not want to be accused of being unfair..

Wow…there are some people on here who are really jealous of the success of Joel Osteen and Lakewood Church. What do you know about either….other than your own assumptions. Here are facts….Joel Osteen has brought more people to God…or back to God…..than can ever be accurately counted….present company included. So what if he uses the message of hope! What people need is HOPE, because without it then life is nothing more than another 24 hours that we need to get through some how and some way. Those who say there is no mention of Jesus in his sermon or during the service, obsiously have never attended a Lakewood service. All you have to do is attend one sometime…just one…in person…Lakewood service and you will see people from all walks of life who are receiving the message….and those are only the ones there in the church and don’t account for those around the world watching on TV….nor does it count for the capacity crowds who flock to the arenas around the country to listen to this man preach. So what if he isn’t a bible college graduate. Did you ever stop and think….he was raised by one of the best preachers out there…..his late father, John Osteen. There are fathers all over the world who hand down their trade, their work, to their children. So what makes it any more impressive that he receive his training from an theology college somewhere as opposed to years and years of training and study under his father. Is Joel a marketing genius….absolutely…no argument there. However, did you ever stop and think his ability just might be a God given blessing to minister this way? Where is it written that ministers have to follow a certain path…or only minister a certain way. I know it helped me at one of the worst times in my life….when before that you couldn’t even get me near a church. Lighten up on the Joel bashing and let people decide for themselves. With all due respect, who died and made you judge and jury….it certainly wasn’t Jesus Christ..the same Jesus Christ you claim Joel never speaks of. Don’t condemn something or someone you probably know very little about. We certainly don’t need you to save us….thanks anyway.

G Man,

People correct my writing all the time, but I don’t sulk about it. However, I do re-write. “Good things happening” is no justification for a false Gospel. It’s really as simple as that. And sure, “good things happening” was the justification used for Jack Hyles, a name that you know that I can use as common ground. But “good things happening” was also used to validate Finney’s bad theology; the Millerites could point to “good things happening,” and if you want to broaden the view, Utah is now reported to be the state with the lowest incidence of drug abuse and alcoholism, so the Mormons can also claim “good things happening.” But none of that is to be used as grounds to allow a prosperity gospel. We are called to take up the cross and follow our Saviour. A ministry must be measured by the rule of Scripture, and not by the veneer of prosperity that it wears.

OK, I have to ask, what is FFF supposed to mean? Also, I find it so funny that many think that we are unfair to judge ol’Joel because we’ve never been to one of his services; why would what you get on TV be any different than what you get in person? Does he want to keep the gospel a secret from his TV audience? Does he only want his live audience to be saved? Funny, out of all the things to edit out for their TV show, they edit out the Gospel!

i love joel & victoria osteen and follow his doctrine as much as humanly possible. he is my favorite minister ever and is the minister for me. i have seen so much of God’s unprecedented favor since i started following his teachings. the fire and brimstone stuff is a turnoff for me. if we spend all our time doing the positive things osteen speaks of (living more GOD like) that bad stuff wont touch you. LONG LIVE JOEL & VICTORIA!!!!

i dont have to be threatened with hell and damnation to try to do the right thing. we are primarily good not primarily bad. osteen tells us to be more God like. Read your bible-it is not that hard. too much judging in these comments so i suppose the judges are not good christians…..OSTEEN stirs the Lord in my heart. i praise God with osteen’s show as often as i can. the hour show on daystar is my favorite. he has a season pass on my tivo so i watch several times a week. i have my own personal relationship with God and I hope all of you do too. God bless you all!

Is Joel Osteen trying to actually preach the gospel on TV or is he offering “Christian Programing” to Christians? By that I mean, much has been made of his lack of gospel presentation on his program. Maybe that’s not what he’s trying to do.

Maybe he sees his program as simply reminding Christians that God isn’t always mad us, out to get us, and isn’t always waiting to nail us for violating a minor point of the law,

Because of this debate I watched two more programs, bought his book, and watched a video of his Easter Service. That service was powerful.

What are you Calvie’s so worked up about. If he did give a gospel presentation you would shred it as shallow anyway and in not giving one the “chosen elect” watching will get saved anyway, sometime - somewhere, right????

I said before and I’ll say it again. It’s theology lite. It’s a fast food version of church and sit down order from the menu 7 dish meal.

It may shock Jeri to find out that Joel maybe connecting with the very people who were hurt and turned off by the whole IFB - stuck up Calvie-Presby churches she blogs about.

Again, his messages are like an appetizer. They’re not a meal. That’s the format of the program. Want a full meal? Go to church….

The question is, Pastor Marty, does Joel think of his ministry as an appetizer? Maybe Joel thinks, and what pastor wouldn’t, he’s giving them a full # course meal. Also, you mention “christian programming” as some kind of “spiritual salve” for legalism; the right preaching of the gospel brings that relief from law but you’ve got to have the bad news pounded into us because we believe we are actually pretty good. We need to hear the threat of God’s wrath otherwise all of Joel’s so called good news, is meaningless. And then, with our dire predicament, why does he feel like he has the luxury of giving us “theology lite” or “fastfood church” as you call it; I don’t think he believes he is giving us that and would probably be insulted at your evaluation. I would hope it(your evaluation) would make him weep and repent and start giving everbody a God centered gospel.
ps, what is IFB?

Pastor Marty Braemer gets it. It’s the format of Psalm 1-Blessed Is The Man…was David abandoning the Gospel?. Osteen is quite obviously talking to a largely Christian audience, and at the end he clearly gives the message of salvation, and I am told in his church each Sunday there is a clarion call to salvation with many responding. Jeri says that is fake and akin to Hyles. Ok.

G-Man, No David wasn’t abandoning the gospel, of course not, look at verse 4 and on. It’s about wrath and judgement on the wicked. Correct me if I’m wrong but does Joel ever warn of wrath or judgement for the wicked? Incidently, what’s your beef with Jeri, seems like every entry you have to make a jab at her/him whoever this person is?

Don, I appreciated your article very much. I believe that this man’s messages are firmly rooted in Word-Faith heresy, the primary of which is that we are gods according to Psalm 82, meaning that we are equal with Christ as Copeland and others preach. Although I think Joel avoids any public profession of this false doctrine. He does however center of the “faith-filled” words doctrine of the Word-Faith movement arguing that your “words have creative power” and can “call things into existence.” In other words, Osteen preaches that faith is a “force” which you can tap into and manipulate for personal gain. The funadamental doctrine of the “name it and claim it” heresy. This would indicate to me that on some leve he does accept the first heresy; that we are equal to God.

It is his subtlety and charm that make him so dangerous. Upon closer examination of his doctrinal and theological beliefs, which frankly is very difficult to do since he really does not articulate any clear doctrinal perpspectives, it becomes clear that he may be another fulfillment of 2 Timothy 4:3 but of a most dangerous kind given his overwhelming popularity. It seems that the masses are gathering unto themselves teachers that will say what their itching ears want to hear.

That’d be a “her,” Tony. (or “she,” to use the nominative case, which is correct in this sentence). Let the pettiness of preachers speak for itself.

The entire Bible is not Psalm One, nor is Psalm One excluding judgement on the wicked (as you noted). Osteen’s ministry is yet another television-event type ministry that makes people feel good without addressing the very real presence of evil, sin, and judgement from God. Nor does it address the necessity and purpose of suffering.

It is, indeed, God’s will that we suffer, and Christ has proclaimed that each of us must take up a cross and follow Him. We learn Christ by having Christ be our sufficiency, and the abundance we enjoy is the abundance of joy in Christ, not the abundance of earthly prosperity. Uriah the Hittite and Naboth were men as faithful (or more faithful) to God as King David. But they suffered very different ends from his. Yet they were not cursed by God or abandoned by God. But they did, indeed, suffer unjustly, all the way to death. And they are just as true and real as King David or Joseph, or any other. Let’s remember that the most memorable and hopeful of the prophets, Isaiah, was put into a tree trunk sawn in half. The godly suffer; they are forgotten, they are trampled underfoot by men. God remembers them, and God knows their name. But in this life, He has appointed suffering to His own to make His righteousness revealed. We are His servants; He is not our servant. We wait upon Him; He does not wait upon us. Osteen leaves out these vital truths.

>>It may shock Jeri to find out that Joel maybe connecting with the very people who were hurt and turned off by the whole IFB - stuck up Calvie-Presby churches she blogs about.<<

Diverting people from one error by means of another error is never a satisfacotry solution. The allegiance of the Christian is to the whole counsel of God. Many IFBx preachers teach shameful legalism, men’s traditions, and superstition, and they engage in covering up the worst and most perverted sins ever committed under the sun. The solution is not therefore to preach prosperity and a breezy, “I was meant to be happy in this world’s system” theology that holds out a guarantee of making peace with this world rather than confronting it with the eternal truths of God’s Word.

The answer, as always, is faithfulness to God’s Word and confidence in God. Our abundance is not of this world. And our kingdom is not of this world. All kinds of errors have been generated to sidestep these truths, and one error does not remedy another.It’s the truth itself, the whole counsel of God, that frees us from the iron manacles of IFBx as well as the golden chains of prosperity religion. The key is to be unchained from the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Jeri

Any devil can connect with anybody who has been hurt. The ability to connect with others is not the mark of God’s power. It can simply indicate a shrewd insight into human need and human weakness. The Lord Jesus alienated almost an entire religious ruling class, and they hated Him so much that they killed Him.

The power to convert the dead to life and persuade sinners to repent of sin is the indicator of God’s power. The power to love is the sign of having been converted. Poverty of Spirit, the trait of begging at the feet of God, is the trait of those who possess the kingdom of Heaven. Mournfulness is the characteristic of the people first in line to be comforted by God. The people who inherit the earth are the people too meek to lay claim to it. The people God welcomes as His righteous saints are the people who are repulsed by their own sin and must have God’s righteousness or they will die of longing for it. The people God blesses are those who suffer and yet forgive. The people who will see the face of God are not the wealthy or the famous or the important, but the people who thinknothing whatsoever of themselves and fly to God for cleansing of sin. The people that the angels acknowledge as the sons of God are the people who effect reconciliation, and the people who suffer for the truth are the first citizens of heaven.

The way of God is NOT the way of man. The people of highest rank in His kingdom have no rank here. Success and prosperity on earth have nothing to do with having obtained the friendship of God.

I was brought up in a conservative Southern Baptist Church and all I remember from all of my pastors was “shame and blame” sermons. I received Christ as Savior when I was 11, but it wasn’t until I was 50 years old that I came to understand my Savior as a God that loves me and wants the best for me in my life. We condemn ourselves to live under condemnation when we don’t have to! I’m personally so grateful to hear sermons that are about “grace and mercy”. I think we could all use a little more of that in our lives. Some of you sound like you’re jealous of Joel Osteen’s success as pastor of Lakewood. Surely Lakewood has been blessed by the Lord. I have no personal knowledge of the services there, but who cares? Who is to say that YOU are right and HE is wrong? Pastors like some of you are the reason people don’t want to come to Christ as Savior. He, alone, is accountable to the Lord for his preaching.

Judy, I do not understand why you object to what I’ve said here. You say you would rather hear about “grace and mercy.” So would I! In the sermon I listened to, Joel Osteen replaced God’s grace and mercy with human effort. He said that if we try hard enough and clean ourselves up enough we can obtain god’s favor. I do not believe we can ever do that. The Bible teaches that we must instead fall on the mercy and grace of God. We can never be good enough. We stand hopeless without Christ. The good news of the gospel shouts loud the message of mercy and grace.

You ask, “Who is to say that YOU are right and HE is wrong?” I do not want you to choose between me and him. I want you to compare what Joel Osteen said to what the Apostle Paul said. My opinion doesn’t matter much, but the scripture does. Read my review again. Joel Osteen took one part of a verse, removed it from its context, and forced it to mean something very different than the scripture said. Romans 12 does not laud human effort. It doesn’t hold out temporal rewards as appropriate motivation for right living. On the contrary, Paul points to the rich mercy of God as a reason for our self-sacrificing worship.

AMEN! brother Don!

Judy, I believe that God wants the best for us. But again, what God decides is best is not what man thinks is best. Jeremiah saw the holiness and rightness of God and spent his life rejected by his own people, cast out, imprisoned, confined to a deep and dark hoel; and even when he was freed, he saw only the poverty and gutted city that had rejected the counsels God had given through him. Isaiah, as I mentioned, was put into a tree trunk and sawn in half. Paul himself ended his life in prison and was beheaded. Peter was crucified upside down.

The joy, peace, and triumph that we have in Christ are by faith in Him, not by the elements of the prosperity of this world. What astounds the unbeliever and whispers grace to the lost is not that we have an abundance of goods or prestige or influence, but, having none of these things, we still have abundance.

A prosperity gospel ultimtely turns pepole from Christ because it points ot a false Christ and a false way. The Lord has specifically told us that we are not better than He is, that we are called by Him to suffer, and that our fellowship with Him and with each otehr is in the reproach of the Cross.

Jeri

AMEN! Jeri!

Someone gave me a copy of his book…I read about a third of the way through and put it down. It is chapter after chapter of redundancy about thinking and being positive. I looked at the footnotes to see how he used Scripture and most of his text choices are eisegetically picked (i.e. made to fit what he was trying to say), most of which are used out of context. One in particular was his choice of Psalm 8:5, where he said that the word honor could be translated as favor. Well, I pulled out my BDB lexicon and that passage has nothing to do with God wanting to make our lives easier. I wonder how many people have referenced back to the footnotes and examined his statements in light of the Scriptures like the Bereans did with Paul in Acts 17:11.

For those who say that Joel is a great preacher, I beg to differ, he might be a great motivational speaker, but a preacher he is not. If I sat down with Joel and wanted to discuss sanctification, or the difference between God’s permissive and perfect will, or maybe even the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture, would he be able to do it? After all, he has no formal training, with the exception of his television and marketing training at ORU.

Maybe it is because he doesn’t preach anything convicting that would cause people to really and truly repent. Everything is feel good fluff. Telling somebody to not be negative is not enough to help them be more Christ-like. And yes, I have read and heard his sermons, and watched him on TV. I am so not impressed. I commend him for his effort, but beyond that I am skeptical.

In a recent bulletin Lakewood used John 3:16 to say that because God gave His Son we should give our money to the church. I am not a pastor, but I am positive that passage has nothing to do with giving money to the church. Whatever any of us thinks of Osteen the fact is he is not preaching the truths of the Bible. He is preaching twisted Scripture.

Amazing stuff!! I am more and more amazed at how we have the living Word of God which is full of warnings against such preachers (see Timothy, Titus and Jude) and yet we have seemingly thrown our discernment to the wind. Our own Lord said in Matt. 7 that these men would come as wolves in sheep’s clothing. And did he say to accept all who hold-up a Bible and smile with laser whitened teeth? No he warned us to “watch out!”. I believe the reason why this ministry has thrived is because we live in a time where sin, poor choices, rebellion, etc. have so filled our lives with the cancer of consequences that we must recreate a god who acts as a cosmic wish granter. Joel O. as tapped into this god and marketed him to the masses. He sells a Jesus who bows to our needs and greeds. A remote control Jesus we tell what to do and when. So I ask–where is the suffering, where is the cost, where is the passion, where is the contrition, where is the true gospel? It’s tragically nowhere to be found in the Oasis of Luv. Let’s go back to testing all things and stop with our addiction to feeling the chill of pop worship songs and 30 minutes of Tony Robbins behind a slick pulpit.
P.S. Jesus took a flogging and was stapled to the Cross for a reason. And I can speak that I am mostly good ’til the cows come home but I am still utterly lost without Christ.

I have been reading many opinions about Joel Osteen lately and I can honestly say I can’t draw a conclusion one way or the other until I attend his church in person. My comment is concerning the tone of these and other postings: We christians have spent too much of our precious time pointing the finger at each other. This type of rhetoric is exactly the reason I left the church for so long and why others find it so unappealling: the world sees little of Christ in our behaviour. Go find something more productive to do like working at a food bank or a sick children’s clinic. God bless.

I for one greatly enjoy Joel Osteen’s sermons. I was turned off to religion and the church for years because of the depressing and discouraging way I’d heard the message delivered. I was turned off to Christianity because while the Christians that I knew would preach ‘Judge not lest ye be judge’ - they were the first to condemn to hell those who were not like themselves. I love Joel’s positive message. His words have made me feel closer to God and to others. He shares my opinion that spirituality should be about love and joy and kindness and doing great things OUT OF LOVE and NOT FEAR. Fear is NOT part of God - it comes from the enemy. God is LOVE. And fear has no part in love. FEAR IS ABOUT CONTROL. It takes away free will, paralyzes and ultimately separates people… from one another and from God.

This is an interesting discussion but as someone who as actually been to lakewood, here’s how it really is. I’ve seen thousands of people each year go down for the alter call and accept Jesus and repent of their sins. I see many many people show up there for church that would be ostracized by the likes of this don character and churches like he belongs to. Lakewood truly reaches out to down trodden. People that are not welcomed at other churches. We don’t care what they’ve done, what they look like, what they wear, or how they smell. Thats the kind of people we want. After they are saved they do attend a 10 week class for new Christians. We don’t beat them up, we love them. We are taught that God loves us no matter what. If any of you really want to know what the doctrine is, why don’t you come to lakewood and take the new beginner classes?

Lakewood Tony,

What have I said to give the impression that I or my church ostracize people? I listened to one of Joel Osteen’s sermons and offered a cratique. The message he preached contradicted the scripture passage he quoted. We do not find favor in the sight of God based on our own human effort. I said I’m glad Osteen calls people to clean living, however that clean living can never reach the standard of perfection God demands. We must instead trust on the mercy and grace of God that flows through Christ. I do not understand how people can call me ungracious for trumpeting the Biblical message of grace over against Osteens religion of works.

I’m late to the party, but in reading through the comments, one thing disturbed me.

“i dont have to be threatened with hell and damnation to try to do the right thing. we are primarily good not primarily bad. osteen tells us to be more God like. Read your bible …”

IF you actually READ the Bible, it says that “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked …” and “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” We’re NOT primarilly good, and the Bible is clear on that. When Osteen teaches that we are, he’s condemning people to rely on themselves and not on God.

I have lived the Joel Osteen’s message long before I ever heard his message. I am convinced Joel’s message is true message of Jesus. I have always believed that GOD did not want his people to suffer hear on Earth and that is the very reason he sent Christ to deliever us true believers.
Wes Hancock

You can argue doctrine, but you can’t argue changed lives. The ministry of Joel Osteen is changing lives all over the world by not only leading thousands to salvation, but inspiring everyday people to live better lives and be all that they can be through Christ. It may be a “simple” message, but it is far from being “theologically shallow”. Michael Spencer, “Pastor” Don Elbourne, and anyone that chooses to broadcast such negative press against an anointed ministry tool should take a moment to examine their own hearts and works first. Too bad that he and others are wasting valuable time tearing down a GREAT man of God, instead they should host sites that will inspire others and apply all of that alleged biblical knowledge in a positive way. Maybe that is a theological lesson that they should look into.

Evil will always rise to attack where lives are being changed. Joel is being used by God to do just that, CHANGE LIVES!! He is a humble and willing vessel that is doing great things and the heart of his ministry is shining through and continues to attract, uplift and bless millions. That is a fact that is not debatable!

cant we all just get along !!!!!!!!!!!! i think we need less internet and more prayer time.

Joel Osteen’s ministry has touched my life in a very positive way. If the “nay” sayers truely believed, they would question themselves why they feel a need to judge him. Mathew 7 Verse 1. “Do not judge or you too will be judged.” I doubt I will ever hear Joel Osteen say anything negative about those who try to condem his ministry. I will ask you to look into yourself and ask the question, Why do I feel the need to judge a ministry that is based on bible teaching, that has found a way to to reach millions of people with a positive message of hope, and has found a way to integrate the teachings of the bible into this day and age. Sounds to me like he has found an excellent way to serve the Lord. Judging is for God to do, trust in him. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to your post. Dan Wills

Sadly, there is a satire at The Sacred Sandwich that all too closely mirrors some of the comments on this thread.

Go to http://www.sacredsandwich.com/bohemianletters.htm and read. Maybe Osteen is a great preacher, and a great Man O’God. But the sermon that Don critiqued (and that’s ALL HE DID, PEOPLE!!!!) doesn’t show it — and many of Osteen’s public comments reflect a very unBiblical attitude toward the inate sinful nature of mankind. And read the satire, seriously — and think about what our attitudes toward criticism say about our spiritual maturity.

I’m sure Osteen is big enough to take some criticism — maybe he’ll even think “They’re right. I need to change the way I’m presenting things, so that what I believe is clear.” That’s all I hope for.

Doctrine matters. Changed lives do, too. I want changed lives for the right reasons — because those people are genuine believers.

I’m amazed at the amount of people who have a problem with Osteen’s message and church. I visited from Virginia last week at Osteen’s church. The service and message was nothing BUT biblical and I am a very critical thinker. Why people say he doesn’t mention Jesus is beyond me. The entire service and message was all about Jesus and accepting Him and believing in Him and living for Him and not this world. A lot of the people who have a problem with Osteen need to look at themselves first and take the plank out of their own eye instead of the speck out of Osteen’s eye.

God is love, April, but you missed the boat here! God is also a jealous God and most of all: Prov. 14: 26 and 27 “the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, our refuge, a fountain of life and to aviod the snares of death ( one snare being “God is only a God of love theology, beware! ). Prov. 9:10 “the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.

I am just finishing up Joel’s book and I like its message. The word Favor might be bothersome to some but for me its the Grace of God. I don’t think a person can get enough of it. Although I don’t think people should put the cart before the horse, it is evident throughout the Bible especially with the Jews that God blesses righteousness. I am very thankful for a ‘feel good’ spirituality because I know if a person feels good he will act good.

There are some very interesting comments posted on the pastor’s critique of Joel Osteen’s sermon. So I will put my two cents in as well. A serious student of the Bible understand that to properly interperet a passage he or she must ask not just what it says, but what the passage means. In addtion, must of the sermons you hear today are an Americanized version of the Gospel. Try telling a starving believer in Africa to just be positive and everything will work out or a persecuted believer in a Muslim country to “discover the champion in you”. You find that most Christians will not except correction when they have been taught error. Numbers don’t mean success, if it does then the Muslims must be right. They are the largest religion in the world. We are not to measure success by the world’s standards. We spend too much time trying to make people Christians, when Jesus commanded us to make disciples. There is a big difference. Too many people go to church to feel good or they listen to certain preachers because they make them feel good. I don’t go to church to feel good. I go to hear the whole council of God and to fellowship with other believers. Truth does not always make you feel good. The apostle Paul describes the Word of God as a two edged sword. It can cut you deep! Anything that cuts that deep can hurt, but it is for our good. We must become discerning believers. The way to do that is to stay before God in prayer and stay in his word. When false prophets and false teaching appear we will know and stay away from them. I don’t know what is in Joel Olsteen’s heart or what are his intentions, all I know is one day I will stand before God and give an account for my life and I will not be able to use Joel Osteen or anyone as an excuse. Ultimately I will be held accountable for my life.

I am a former church brat turned agnostic borderline-atheist mega church basher. After nine years of refusing to fully accept God, I gave in to the hype and decided to attend a Lakewood Church service– a service at which the Holy Spirit called me to Salvation.

About the false teachings of Joel and the church… I guess I can only account for what I’ve been taught… Let me know if what I’ve learned is wrong because boy, they had me fooled… During my time at Lakewood I’ve learned that I deserve death and hell for what I have done. I’ve discovered that no matter how good a person I tried to be or thought I was, it was all in complete vain without God’s Grace & Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. It was Jesus’ love for me that made him shed his precious blood on the Cross. He chose to suffer because he thought I was worth it regardless of the terrible sins that I had committed. (I’d never had anyone give me such worth!) He demonstrated that he was willing to endure such pain and humiliation because he saw the wonderful reward that awaited thereafter. Therefore, because I lay my burdens on him, and his blood erased my sin by the ever merciful Grace of All-Mighty God, I owe my life and every breath of every second to Him. I’ve understood that everything that I have, from my job, to the last grape left in the refrigerator is there because God chose to bless me with it; to bless me with the $1.25 it cost to buy the initial bunch of grapes, and with the health and capacity it took to earn that $1.25… So I am not my own. I was purchased at a price, and I owe God thanks and praise for all eternity for paying a price I could never ever have conceived to afford. I owe it to Him from the bottom of my heart because I Love Him for everything He is and everything He has done. I don’t do [or not do] anything [anymore] because I’m afraid of the burning gates of hell. I do it out of pure and genuine love for my Creator, my Savior, my Heavenly Father… I so desire to please God with my life. I offer it as a sacrifice and offering thanking Him that His mercy is willing to accept my feeble gift in exchange for something far beyond conceptual value– Him.

We are not taught that we are equal to Jesus, much less little gods. In Matthew 12:46-50 Jesus calls us his brother’s and sisters. But we are well aware that Jesus is the one and only Highly Exalted most treasured of God’s (he is God!) children who sits at God’s right-hand, and has been the only one in all existence that has ever been and will ever be fully pleasing to God. We are simply to be disciples of God on earth for the lost and condemned by spreading the Good News.

I’ve learned that God is indeed a Father, (I was never able to grasp that concept growing up in the church) and as such He loves those who have accepted Him– unconditionally. He is strict, yes, there is no love without discipline. But greater is the Love of a Father, than the anger of a God. Glory be to our Heavenly Father for His Mercy! His Law and His Word are infallible and without question, but because we all fall short of it Jesus is the Way, The Truth, and The Life… Lakewood has that absolutely clear.

You cannot fully understand Lakewood’s truth without being a part of it, especially if your heart isn’t open to it. There is much more to Lakewood and Joel than a 20 minute broadcast… Lakewood is open 7 days a week and has week-round ministries for all ages and groups, thousand’s of volunteers, along with hundreds of home groups through out Houston and it’s surrounding areas. The associates pastors are some of the most anointed people in Houston. The College Age/Singles minister is reaching thousand’s of young people each week in helping the “I don’t want to hear it anymore generation” realize who God really, really is… You can say that Joel’s ministry is fast food ministry, but in a world that has become so hardened and impatient against the things of God, you won’t get to them any other way… you simply wont. Are we really willing to refuse to get creative. It’s not wrong– it’s different… a different approach. So not trying to get to them SOMEHOW is like letting them burn slowly… These people, such as I did come to Lakewood every week, and are saved… Once that is done, we show them exactly why they needed to be. Someone mentioned before “there can be no good news without bad news…” Is that the only way to see that? How about seeing it this way: getting your news is a choice, like everything else in our lives… People always ask, “what do you want to hear first, the good news or the bad news?” At Lakewood, we choose to hear the good first– because after you truly receive that good news – The Good News of Jesus Christ– everything else is just details… The Holy Spirit that takes care of the rest… Remember WE don’t change people, God does– but we have to lead them to God first…

You know as I fellowship with my brothers and sisters at Lakewood, and hear –for example– a 4.0 GPA Ph.D. Chemical Engineering student declare that she knows nothing, and that the name written on those degrees should be God’s, not hers, because she could have NEVER done it without Him, I realize that such faith and trust can only be of God… That is the faith of Lakewood… It is a church that has been faithful in the little, and now have been trusted by God with the greater… So, don’t worry about us Lakewoodians, I think we’ll manage… May the Grace of God be with you, as with us…

Liz, Thank you for your testimony. I do not want to detract from it in any way, however I’ve noticed that all the Osteen supporters who have commented completely disregard the main point I made in my critique. No one wants to address his misuse of scripture. Instead everyone wants to justify his faulty hermeneutics and nonexistent exegesis with appeals to pragmatic results.

Osteen opens every sermon by raising the Bible in the air and leading the congregation in a pledge to the Word of God. He then uses scripture as nothing more than a diving board to plunge into his own message, which in at least in the case I cited, deviated completely from the text he twisted out of context.

dear sir, i was just tuning to scan some tv channels in the morning,for the latest, when i was stopped by a voice,so natural,so pious, that i sticked myself, until he was finished for today, indeed, a great and honest mirror,that he was showing to the audience. He was telling about his sister,LISA, indeed,positive,bravo, please keep it up for the society. love and regards.

First, I want to say thanks to Don for all this discussion. You do a very good job for the kingdom of God. Don’t be discouraged!
There is something I noticed in this discussion. I will try to formulate that. There are some people who were trying to defend Joel by attacking Don and others. So what I noticed: they accused in criticism and not being loving but they didn’t see that they were the same toward them! Phrases like: “take a look at your fruit”, “some poor, insecure people have to condemn a fellow…”, “some people on here who are really jealous…” “Pastors like some of you are the reason people don’t want to come to Christ as Savior.” ““Pastor” Don … should take a moment to examine their own hearts and works first.”, these phrases tell A LOT to me!
Here is the reason why there are so many people in Lakewood and why they like the positive teaching of Joel Osteen. I hope people who go there would read it to the end.
The people there signed an agreement between each other to not mention anything bad they see in each other. This is what the positive thinkingis all about. They decided to create such a world where everybody is supposed to close eyes on other people faults. This is the way they love each other. They are really nice people to each other.
But the matter of fact this is the way not to look at ourselves. In time you start to believe that you are good indeed and you have no major faults. And it is SUCH A GREAT FEELING! Better than drugs. If somebody (like Don) dares to enter this world and criticize it, he rather think twice because the people in this world would do their best to kick him out. They would say: “We certainly don’t need you to save us” or something like this. This person would be labeled as not loving, destroying the work God Himself blesses and so on. We see it happening in this discussion.
But many find this world of positive thinking attractive. Those who grew up in homes with little love but a lot of demand and criticism. Those who are tired of criticism. They come and as they’d say get healed. So, what is wrong then?
First, these people in this world of positive thinking make the Holy Spirit sign the same agreement to be only positive. And I do believe that it is very true. They hear from Him what they want to hear. They would say that God is love and He will never be negative. And they sincerely believe that!
The result of this: these people very slow change into spiritual maturity because they limit the Holy Spirit. I know some people from Lakewood so well that I can say that. They are very nice people to you as long as you allow them to live in their world which they created for themselves. As soon as you try to correct them they close the door and escape into their world! But the problem is that they deal in the same way with God! Only good and positive things from God are accepted. This is the core of their theology. All corrections, criticism, uncomfortable doctrines, diseases, lack of money, anything that makes you feel not so good is from devil! And you are his angel if you bring such things or teachings into their world.
This is far from being a mature Christian. A Christian who is honest. Honest with himself and with God. Who is not afraid to watch yourself and the doctrine closely (1 Tim 4:16). Who is honest to admit that he is far from being perfect and that negative criticism might be right! Who has courage to say “thanks” to those who correct him. Because corrections help!!! If they weren’t helping then Paul wasted so much time in vain writing his letters to Corinth and Galatia and that he wasn’t moved by the Holy Spirit when he was writing it. But the truth is that he was moved by the Holy Spirit. And I believe Don was as well.
I don’t say that Lakewood is bad, but I say that they can be better. That’s why corrections are! God very often corrects through people and corrections sometimes are negative! Look at the Bible, there are many examples there. What Don asked Joel to do is to use better exegesis and hermeneutics to share the Word of God more accurate. What is the problem? Joel should say thanks to that. I would do that if somebody did it to my preaching.
Joel Osteen knows that if he changes his style then a huge part of his church will leave looking for another “world of positive thinking”, where is nobody negative, including the Holy Spirit.

At the end I would include the poem of the 18th century which goes together with 2 Cor 12:7-10 (the passage Joel Osteen will never preach)

PRAYER ANSWERED BY CROSSES

I ask’d the Lord that I might grow
In faith, and love, and every grace;
Might more of His salvation know,
And seek more earnestly His face.

‘Twas He who taught me thus to pray,
And He, I trust, has answered prayer;
But it has been in such a way
As almost drove me to despair.

I hoped that in some favour’d hour
At once He’d answer my request,
And by His love’s constraining power
Subdue my sins and give me rest.

Instead of this, He made me feel
The hidden evils of my heart,
And let the angry powers of hell
Assault my soul in every part.

Yea, more, with His own hand He seem’d
Intent to aggravate my woe;
Cross’d all the fair designs I schemed,
Blasted my gourd, and laid me low.

Lord, why is this? I trembling cried,
Wilt Thou pursue Thy worm to death?
‘This in this way’ the Lord replied,
‘I answer prayer for grace and faith.

These inward trials I employ
From self and pride to set thee free;
And break thy schemes of earthly joy
That thou may’st seek thy all in Me’

John Newton, 1799

Joel Osteen has a passion for taking people to a higher place in their life and he has risen above and conquered far more than half the ministers that preach their going to hell sermons, sometimes people need uplifting God instead of fire and brimstones, why do you think half the population is on anti-depressants, Maybe the Lord is wanting new christians to see his Love and faithfulness instead of the so called christians views and judgements along with their power plays as to how everyone should be.different people are at different levels in their compassion and understanding of life and Osteen helps many strive for better and God is in Control people.

I cannot believe that all of you call yourselves christians talking about a wonderful pastor like John Osteen. Don’t talk unless your doing anything yourself. Many peoples lives are being changed that have had no hope at all and to finally hear a preacher that doesn’t preach condemnation, and fire and brimstone, is actually refreshing. The word of God is the GOOD NEWS, and it only takes the simplicity of a child to understand that!!! Some of ya’ll are getting way too high on yourself. If that’s not deep, what is deep. It because of people that make negetive comments, and gripe youth don’t want to have anything to do with church or God. What we say either points people to or away from God. Has Pastor Osteen said anything wrong or evil or off the wall? I don’t think so. We are supposed to be encouragers as christians.

I am a Christian. I believe the ONLY way to Heaven is by accepting and believeing Jesus Christ died for my sins. I believe this because of what the Bible says. I have also watched many of Joel Osteen’s programs on television. He made me feel more positive about myself. It was refreshing to hear. I believed Joel Osteen was a man of God. I did not question what Joel Osteen really believes. I just knew that he made me feel better about myself. After watching Joel on Larry King Live tonight, I decided to evaluate him more closely. I asked myself, “Self, what is the main message of the Bible?” Is it to feel good about myself? Is it to think positive? Clearly it is not. Those are good things, I believe, but not the main message of God’s inspired word. Joel had fooled me. His messages contained enough truth in them to make them seem Biblical, when they really were not. This saddens me. It is really very simple. Compare Joel’s sermons to what the Bible says. Don’t just pick one verse out the Bible and base the whole sermon on the one verse, taken out of context. Preach what God wants you to preach, not what people want to hear. If it makes people feel good about themselves, then great. If it makes people feel badly about themselves, well great too. It shouldn’t be about what people want to hear, it should be about what God wants people to hear. Some may say, “How do you know God doesn’t want people to hear Joel Osteen’s messages?”. Who am I to make that decision, to be the judge of that? It is very simple. Compare the messages to what the Bible really says. If they contradict the Bible, then it is not from God. It is true that the Bible says not to judge people. So we shouldn’t judge child molestors? So we shouldn’t judge rapist? So we shouldn’t judge murderers? Use the common sense God gave us all. Not judging someone does not mean that we can’t say someone’s actions are wrong. Not judging someone does not mean that we should agree with everything we hear. I guess to sum it all up, I am glad that I found out the truth about Joel Osteen. Remember, Christians, always return to the Bible for inspiration. You don’t need a false message to make you feel better about yourself. In the end, it will destroy your true faith.

Just my thoughts.

Stephen

Listened to Joel Osteen on “Larry King” which my husband and I rarely watch. What turned me off on Osteen was when King asked him, “So, what do you think about abortion, and being born-again?” Osteen said, “You know, Larry, I don’t like to go there . . . I just want people to hear what I say and feel comfortable.” OH BROTHER! This was Osteen’s perfect opportunity for him to respond to King’s question - - as I do believe King is searching to answers for himself - - and feeling the tug of Jesus on his heart.

I have heard some Osteen sermons. The problem with Osteen is that he preaches the law in terms of tips for living a happy life. There isn’t much gospel either. This guy may have preached the Cross, but I have never heard him do so. Oh no…he can’t preach the cross, its a negative image. It might frighten and turn off his audiance, it might reduce his viewership. People don’t want to hear about sin, the cross and redemption, so people like Osteen give the hoi polloi what it wants: self-help trash. Osteen would do the world a favor if he became a self-help guru and left the ministry to those who can preach law and gospel.

Don:

Reference March 1, 2005 “… took one part of a verse, removed it from its context, and forced it to mean something very different …”

Jan. 31: “…chanting allegiance” to the word of God?? June 2: “…pledge to the word of God”??

This is the text of the pre-sermon confession, authored by the late Pastor JOHN Osteen, from the Lakewood church website approximately 1997:

Confession:
“This is my Bible. I am what it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do. Today I will be taught the word of God. I boldly confess. My mind is alert. My heart is receptive. I will never be the same. I am about to receive — the incorruptible — indestructible –ever-living — seed — of the word of God. I will never be the same. Never, never, never. I will never be the same — In Jesus’ name. Amen.

This discussion makes me sad. The following is a direct quote from one of Joel Osteen’s sermons:
” Well, if you’d bow your heads in prayer, please. I’d like to talk to those who are viewing by television. I’d like to just give you an opportunity. If you’ve never made Jesus the Lord of your life, well, this is the time to do it. It doesn’t have to be difficult. The Bible says, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” So, I’m going to invite you to just pray this simple prayer with me today and mean it from the bottom of your heart. Say, oh God, come into my heart. Save me Jesus. Be my Lord, be my Savior. I repent of my sins. And I want to serve You all the days of my life.

“Friends, I believe if you prayed that simple prayer and you meant it, you ought to get in a good church and let them disciple you and learn about the things of God. And we’re so glad you’ve tuned in with us today. And if you get a chance, come out here and be with us in person. We’d love to have you. If not, go to a good church in your area. Until this time, may God bless you.”

What’s wrong with this? I am sad that some people think that the man who puts out this message to the “hoi polloi” is speaking “trash,” and that rather than continue to put out such a message, he should leave the ministry.

All of this sounds so typical “baptist.” I attended and graduated from Okla Bapt University - and this is what we did all the time. All of us preacher boys who had crappy, fruitless ministries, if even that, criticized all those that had flourishing ministries. Probably not a one of of you ever have sat down and spoken at length with Osteen. And my goodness - how can you come to a conclusion about a man by watching him on TV? GFoodnight, grow up, and shut up, and carry on with what you think you’re called to do.

PS; what a wasted web site

Jimmy you asked, “my goodness - how can you come to a conclusion about a man by watching him on TV?” I didn’t come to a conclusion about the man by watching him on TV. I came to a conclusion about the sermon he preached on TV.

You also wrote, “GFoodnight, grow up, and shut up, and carry on with what you think you’re called to do.” That is what I’m called to do - preach the word and rightly divide the word of truth. How ironic that those who scream the loudest about my critique slam me the hardest, as if to say, “its wrong for you to point out errors in a persons exegesis of scripture, but we can flame you with impunity and that’s OK.” I don’t understand this double standard coming from the Osteen camp.

Joel is like a light beer commercial, supposedly Great Taste (Sounds Good) But Less Filling (Absence of the word of God). Sadly far too many people are consuming it and oblivious to the consequences.

His comments on Larry King, some 30 “I don’t know’s” and several “Its not my place to say,” in response to if Jesus is the only way to Heaven is unbelievable for America’s largest church, most popular Christian pastor, and now Author.

John, his father, at least had a seminary education and stayed pretty much on track most of his life. I heard (and have on DVD) Joel on Bill O’Reilly (Fox News) saying something similar: “People don’t want theology, they just want to feel good about themselves,” obviously not realizing that the definition of theology is the study of God’s word. So though people raise their Bibles above their head and recite the Osteen creed they must not read them or any of Joel’s scriptures in the context of which they were written, or complete sentences. Otherwise they would say “Hey, that may sound good but its not God.”

Its all rebellion against God…but with Joel its a great taste and enough of a buzz in the process that the money slipping from wallets nationwide is just less noticable.

Just read Liz H’s post #57. She makes all the claims in defense of Lakewood that so many make of the cults claiming they are misunderstood or one has to experience them to understand them. Scary.

joel,
i watch you on t.v everytime i get a chance i made a bad mistake my wife was married once before and her husband has very mean to her in the kids i support them now the best i can we been married 2 years and i work between 70-80 a week to pay the bills the last 3 -4 mounths i took it out on her screaming yelling cursing and doing it to the kids and i figued the stress is to worth loosing her and the kids and she says now she wants a divorce she wont go to conusling with me and i dont know what to do she says she needs her space for right now i know that b/c of the damage i done i recently re deadacted my life to god i am old 32 never been married do you have any advise she wont even talk to me i afraid she or i will say things we will regreat we dated for only 5 mo then got married she thinks we should divorce give each other time and start over slower than what we did i not affraid of being alone i truly love her and her kids at the bottom of my heart if you can please,please,please, i am begging i need advise how to get her back in my life

thank you

mike hynes

All you critics crack me up. How many of you guys have been responsible for millons of souls being brought into the kingdom, as there is with Pastor Benny Hinn, Rhinehard Bonke, Joyce Meyer, Pastor Gary Simons etc. Yes, and after being brought into the kingdom being fed the Word of God by these ministries, you guys are a real trip!

Joel Osteen has encouraged many people who may never have gone to church to consider Jesus.His sermons always express the love of Jesus, and helps the listener to have enough confidence to pray and have faith that there is a God in Heaven who loves them and cares about their individual lives. There are many hurting people in this world, and many who need the positive message–the GOOD NEWS–that Jesus Christ is alive and loves them. Different approaches appeal to different people. If a preacher is reaching thousands of young and older people, causing them tune into a Sunday morning service when they normally would have switched the channel and not stopped to hear about the love of God, why do some of you criticize rather than applaud him? Even some of us “old-time” Christians who learned a lot about being afraid that every small shortcoming caused us to need to go to the alter and start all over again have been uplifted by the messages of Jesus grace and His continuing mercy and love. People who watch the TV ministry of Joel Osteen are encouraged and inspired to learn more about the ways a Christian should believe and live. Please don’t be a stumbling block to others by continuing to criticize a young minister who is being a lifeline to others. You and I cannot be there for all those who are lost or lonely or depressed or despondant. Allow those people to place confidence in someone who is a man of God, even if you as a “learned minister or old-timer” believe it could be presented more fully. Once people are introduced to Jesus and ask Him to forgive them and to come into their hearts, Jesus will guide them and help them learn and grow. The Lakewood church attenders have said the full church service goes into more depth. Please support, not discourage,this young ministry.